[GamezBeCJ]

I've read the book at least a couple of times now. I don't really how to explain it, but every time I read it, I get this feeling that when Jeff explains the concepts, he refers to this "being" who is interpreting the outcome of the signals coming from the neurons.
If you take a close look, when Jeff refers to a neuron up in the hierarchy, he conveys a sense of this neuron being a complete thinking being.
If you have a neuron that fires when you see a picture of your dad, that's all you have; a neuron firing. But how that translates into the whole "experience" of looking at a picture of your dad?.
I don't know if what I'm saying here makes sense for everybody. I guess my point is, how can one explain the concept that we regard as "consciusness", the self-awareness that all humans have. At what point during our first years, the brain, from being a mass of neurons becomes the container of the awareness that we exists as individuals.
Furthermore, if this is a mere biological process or property, would it be safe to assume that, at least the animals with most developed brains, have a conscience and are aware of their own existence??

[DavidOlmsted]

Hmm, I think we need to define our terms in order to properly discuss this.

Conscious Sensations vs Consciousness: Consciousness is typically used to refer to perception combined with conscious sensations. Conscious Sensations, also known as qualia, is that something that turns a biochemical response in the brain (or a series of action potentials) into a color, or a feeling, or some other sensation. It is what makes us different from some future robot with a computer simulated brain.

Now add onto that consciousness such as when one views an image only to have it suddenly burst forth into recognition. One is not conscious of the recognized image at first although one "sees" the colors so one has conscious sensations.

So in this sense the perception part of consciousness is a circuit level brain function but conscious sensations are not. Since self-awareness is really all about perception then that also is a brain function and it only seems to exist in humans and the great apes.

But you also bring up another good point as to what is meaning in the brain. Is a "dad" neuron all there is? Absolutely not and this is a major flaw in Jeff's model. The cortex cannot be a linear hierarchical network like conventional neural networks. Instead it must be a knowledge representation scheme able to recall on cue via attention control all the features that make up a "dad", from specific time and place example to generic classification features.

If you want to read up more on my ideas on conscious sensations see the page at my neurocomputing.org site.
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Click to go to my site at neurocomputing.org

[Con]

This is my first time so how is the water?? About awareness, it would seem that there are two levels, one being aware of the environment and your condition and second being aware that you are aware (consciousness). An ameba is aware of the environment to the extent that is will move away from a water area containing certain chemicals and when hungry towards areas displaying the chemical signature of food. It is also aware of cellular, body, shape as it will form one or more pseudopods to engulf prey or to move with. Is an ameba self aware?, probably not. At least not in any testable way. My dog on the other hand provides some interesting clues. Some times we get a moth or some other insect on the ceiling, if the dog walks into the room and sees it, almost guaranteed
To happen, she will woof a few times and then come after me or my wife and bug us to follow her. When we do she leads us into the affected room stares and the bug and woofs until we do something, usually involving a fly swatter. Other times she will jump and run to her toy box and rummage through it until she finds the correct toy, grab it and run over to me and bang it on my leg wanting to play. If I ignore her effort she will discard the toy and return to the toy box for more rummaging until she finds one that may be more suitable and repeats the leg banging. These actions tend to indicate that her awareness at times exists in the future and she plans present actions to reap future benefits. A number of years ago a Canadian naturalist observed wolves in the artic for a year. During one of his observations of the pack hunting, a pair of young males split off from the pack and raced to a point the pack would normally pass in about 15 minuets and hid in the tundra grass. When the pack approached the pair leaped into the midst of the pack, the ensuing melee lasted for about five minuets with the entire pack enjoying a good mock battle. The naturalist documented this in a very interesting book the name of witch eludes me. This is another example of planning for a future event. This type of planning would be extremely difficult without self awareness. Bonobos and chimpanzees are known to recognize themselves in a mirror, which is a test of self awareness. Recently rats have been added to that list. Our larger brains and extra large neo cortex allow us to expand our self awareness further into the past and future.

It would seem that for any animal to survive would require three mental functions, Forecasting (is that a prey or predator- edible or dangerous), Decision/Action ( attack, stand and fight or flee) and Memory (very associative). To perform these functions the system needs to know Body Condition (hurt, tired, hungry or fully charged) internal sensors provide this, Body Position (to determine what movement is possible) sensors in each point provide angular data to determine positions and muscular sensors provide tension data, Balance and Acceleration (again to determine possible movement and effort) provided by the inner ear and pressure on joints and foot pads. This data is shared between all three functions, probably most strongly with Forecasting and Decision/Action. Outside data is feed into the Memory from the normal five senses sfter being processed into usable images where it would pick up associated memories and be fed to Forecasting and Decision/Action. Forecast data would go to Decision/Action and Memory. Decision/Action would go out as body commands and to Memory. Feedback loops would provide circulating paths between the three functions and be regulated by requests from the Decision/Action function. The controlled feedback circulation could then be the generator of self awareness. Jeff’s theory of the operation of the six layered neo cortex is ideally suited to perform the preceding activities.
As to when the human brain becomes aware, it is probably during the last part of the second trimester or the early part of the third. Active fetuses are calmed by music and their mother’s voices during the third trimester and will actively try to avoid unpleasant environments. As about any mother if she ever took a hot bath during the eighth or ninth month of pregnancy that her unborn deemed too hot. She will gladly explain how it feels to have the holy do do kicked out of you from the inside. From observation said kicks can raise one to two inch waves in the tub.

I would expect that more than one neuron is involved in yelling dad or Bill Clinton or anything else that is recognized.

This seems to have gotten a bit long and possibly a bit outside of an issue or two. Hopefully it will stimulate a bit of thought. Thanks…..Con

[discoverer]

I'm not sure about this...but isn't concious related to emotions?

To be concious might be like the state of waken up(in the real world) and having emotions about the surroundings...and your self, ofcourse...

[Filip_Poulsen]

Maybe...

Emotions are tired to the future.. Like when hope is lost or gained. If you feel Threathened or comforted etc..

to "feel" those things has to have a conection with a defined idea about "you"

[discoverer]

Considering the fact that hormons affect your emotions, isn'tconscience related to biologic property?(that is, if the emotion is related to conscience.)
This might be right or wrong, since I'm guessing;;;;

[danshawen]

If everyone went vegetarian, the world would be covered in poison ivy for salad.

The short answer is "yes". They are (and always were) intelligent. So, why do you eat them?