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Mark


Joined: 31 Mar 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Palo Alto, CA

04-21-05, 03:54 pm
PostPost subject: Brain Not Clocked? Reply with quote

This quote by David Olmsted is from the “Application to computer game playing (Chess/Go/...)” thread. The topic was starting to get away from game playing so I’d like to give it a fresh start if I may:

Quote:
The brain is not clocked so it has no discrete states.


How can you know that? Sentences are discrete. Flashes of brilliance are discrete. Everything seems to point toward the thought process being the continual generation of discrete “thought frames”. Not to mention our ability to witness a rapid succession of movie frames and “blend” them into the illusion of continuum. Why would we have that ability? Doesn’t all of this imply the existence of a clock?

With all of the emphasis on massive parallelism, one loses sight of the thought process being singular. It’s been shown that we’re unable to truly concentrate on more than one activity at a time. It seems that thinking must be more than a fuzzy, probabilistic process.
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DavidOlmsted


Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Champaign, IL

04-22-05, 03:26 am
PostPost subject: Reply with quote

The brain does not have any clock signal like computers that tell when the state of the brain is supposed to transition into another state. Yet state transitions can be thought of as discrete and as occuring instantaneously. Mathematically, this is represented by impulse functions. Amazing how impulse functions are similar to action potentials Wink .
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andy.goryachev


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 10
Location: California, USA

08-07-06, 01:02 am
PostPost subject: EEG Reply with quote

It appears that the brain may be "clocked", but not like a CPU is clocked with a single clock signal. There seems to be a number of various periodic rhytms (alpha wave for instance).

I wonder if HTM implementation exhibits the same oscillating activity patterns.
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chatham


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 64

08-15-06, 05:05 pm
PostPost subject: theta gamma clocking Reply with quote

the last poster is correct - there are many oscillatory periodic rhythms in cortex, some of which are thought to be especially important for attention and memory. foremost among these are the gamma and theta oscillations, which are thought by some (Jensen, Lisman and Idiart) to interact in a kind of "multiplexing mechanism," by which a specific pattern of neural firing may preferentially occur during a particular phase of the theta cycle. It appears that there are around 5 preferntial firing slots within the phase of a single theta cycle, which corresponds roughly to what one would expect to happen if information was encoded by a multiplexed gamma/theta rhythm.

Check it out here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=16161035&dopt=Abstract
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joel


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
Posts: 12

08-17-06, 03:10 pm
PostPost subject: Reply with quote

I think the following model might apply, at least in some cases...

1)A network receives input while in a 'low-gain' mode.

2)The input path is blocked, and the 'gain' is increased, causing the network to make its decision.

repeat...

W. Freeman seems to have observed this cycle in rabbit olfactory bulb, paced at the rabbit's resperatory rate. I think others have claimed to observe this in the hypocampus/cortex hookups, running at EEG-type rates.

Anyways, EEG itself demonstrates that there is lots of coordinated sequenced activity in the brain, whatever that activity might be. But calling this a clock as in the context of computers would be misleading. At least I hope it's not the same thing, as getting every bit of a computer to sync up to a GHz clock and never miss a bit is a big PTA.
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DavidOlmsted


Joined: 03 Nov 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Champaign, IL

09-10-06, 02:50 pm
PostPost subject: Reply with quote

Individual neurons can be simulated to pulse with a very regular pattern for timing control but this is not the same as saying the brain is clocked. Clocking defines when one system state transforms into another according to fiinite automata theory. Since this is the only information processing theory published how can the brain process its information without having discrete states?
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joel


Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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09-11-06, 05:09 pm
PostPost subject: Reply with quote

>>Individual neurons can be simulated to pulse with a very regular pattern for timing control

You'll have to tell me your learning rule. I practice and practice with my metronome, but still can barely keep a steady beat! Cheers!
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Nugenta


Joined: 27 Nov 2006
Posts: 4

11-27-06, 12:15 pm
PostPost subject: Reply with quote

I would say dont think about the "neural states" but rather think in terms of synaptic states. A neurons output pulse may take on a huge variety of patterns based on whatever inputs it receives. The questions is if the underlying synaptic states are changing. With a consistent environmental structure, a learned system shouldl converge on a stable synaptic state irrespective of it being a clocked system or asynchronous. And a neuron is not much more than a group of synapses.

~Alex
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